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Pro-Life Aristotle
Taking both sides of the abortion debate seriously.

An NRO Interview

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A professor of philosophy at Loyola Marymount University in Los Angeles, Christopher Kaczor is the author of the new book The Ethics of Abortion: Women’s Rights, Human Life, and the Question of Justice. He talks to National Review Online’s Kathryn Jean Lopez about life, death, justice, and the Star Trek transporter.
 

KATHRYN JEAN LOPEZ: You write that The Ethics of Abortion: Women’s Rights, Human Life, and the Question of Justice “provides reasoned justification for the view that all intentional abortions are morally wrong and that doctors and nurses who object should not be forced to act against their consciences.” What right do you, a man, have to make such a case? And why shouldn’t they be forced to act against their consciences? Abortion, you might recall, is legal in the United States. Don’t doctors and nurses have a moral obligation to provide access?

CHRISTOPHER KACZOR: You’ve asked three important questions, the first of which concerns the right to speak about abortion. Legally speaking, everyone has a right to free speech, including speech about abortion. Morally speaking, every person of good will has the right and obligation to speak out in defense of the defenseless and in favor of a just social order. The question “What right do you, a man, have to make a case against abortion?” seems to presuppose that abortion is simply and solely about women, but this is a false supposition. The majority of abortionists are men — more men than women describe themselves as “pro-choice” — and in the United States, men pay for abortions with their tax dollars. Aside from these considerations, every abortion involves the pregnant woman, the expectant father, the one who is aborted, and the society that allows it.

Secondly, although abortion is currently legal in the United States, it is also currently illegal to force any doctor to perform an abortion. The Church amendment, passed shortly after Roe v. Wade, protects pro-life doctors and institutions from being forced to carry out abortions. Doctors and nurses, as mentioned, have no legal obligation to provide access to abortion, nor do they have a moral obligation. Indeed, the Hippocratic Oath says, “I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy.” A doctor’s proper role is to heal patients and promote health, not to injure and destroy human life. I develop this case extensively in my book as well as elsewhere online.
 

LOPEZ: It’s all nice and good to engage in academic exercises about the ethics of abortion, but no book will eradicate the fact that there are women who will feel the need to abort their unborn children and doctors who will provide the service. It was the case before it was legal and it will be after. Desperation doesn’t always take a break for an academic debate before further action.

KACZOR: I think you are right that abortions took place prior to legalization and abortions would continue if abortion were made illegal. The same point can be made for theft, child abuse, and assault, which have always happened in human history and which will always happen. Indeed, if people never did the act in question, making a law about it would be superfluous. In any case, before anyone actually chooses abortion, that person first considers the possibility and endorses it as choiceworthy. I hope that my book can prompt people to reconsider the issue, to reconsider whether abortion is choiceworthy. Furthermore, thoughtful people, those concerned with justice and the promotion of authentic human flourishing, have a serious obligation to help all people, especially women in crisis-pregnancy situations, to find a way to provide concrete service and aid to everyone involved.
 

LOPEZ: What’s the most compelling argument advocates of legal abortion make?

KACZOR: The most compelling argument for abortion is made by David Boonin of the University of Colorado-Boulder in his book A Defense of Abortion. Boonin is a very smart philosopher and uses all his ingenuity to deny the fetal right to live until 25 to 28 weeks into pregnancy. His argument is that until a being has an actual desire of some kind, that being does not have a right to live.

Boonin’s view faces several difficulties. The first is that it opens to the door to infanticide, the killing of newborn infants, since many premature babies are born prior to 25 weeks, and so do not have a right to live in Boonin’s view. Secondly, it is implausible to hold that human beings only 25 weeks old really have desires, since desires involve judgments that something is lacking and that this something is worth having. Immature human beings do have pleasant and unpleasant sensations, but I doubt that they make judgments, and therefore they do not really have desires. If this is true, then infanticide becomes permissible according to the standard Boonin proposes until much later in human development, a year or two after birth.
 

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COMMENTS   25

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1689
   10/19/11 08:02

The article doesn't fully address abortion in the case of rape. Perhaps it's obvious but here's an argument that it is ethical to allow abortion for rape, at least early in the pregnancy: Rape is a crime of violent assault committed against women--it's a moral outrage. Carrying to term for 9 months a fetus that is the product of such a loathsome attack, is easily & readily perceived as a second moral outrage. With the knowledge, the constant changes to a woman's body, fetal movement -- every second of every day could be a constant re-living & reminder of the original violent assault. If the woman can live with the baby & put it up for adoption, great. But society, out of empathy for the woman's suffering, should ensure there is an opportunity to end such a pregnancy, and not force her to live with 9 months of psychological torment if she's not willing. (So make the decision early & stick with it).

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   10/19/11 13:09

The circumstances of conception have no bearing on the morality of killing another human being, in utero or out.

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   10/19/11 21:09

Or, put another way - when conception occurs as a result of rape, perhaps it is God's way of bringing good out of evil.

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   10/19/11 17:38

I have some sympathy for your view, and a huge amount of sympathy for the rape victim, yet "a constant re-living & reminder of the original violent assault" is not a justification for killing an innocent third party. There is really no way around that fact.

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Anne Perrell
   10/20/11 13:02

9 months of psychological torment will happen after an assault, pregnant or not. But we also have to acknowledge the psychological torment post abortion. While not an official diagnosis, post abortion grief can be profound and lifelong. It often is, but the women are conflicted. It's hard to grieve a loss when the loss was self-procured, even if 'supported' by the father, family, friends, and trusted medical professionals. Notice the difference in the way World War vets DIDN'T talk about the atrocities of what they saw or did, yet the younger vet generation DOES talk and traumatic stress IS a recognized diagnosis. A woman who aborted faces the very same challenges to resolve or process what happened. I'm not sure anyone ever gets 'over' it - a big reason why I pray for our military present and past and anyone who has suffered a profound loss. Our hearts are fragile, despite the will of our minds.

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Mary De Voe
   11/09/11 12:35

The rapist cannot be put to death for rape, but the rapist ought to be put in prison for life. Putting an innocent person to death for the crime of his father is unconstitutional.

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   10/19/11 08:38

A timely interview and important subject that affects us all. I look forward to reading the book and many thanks to Ms Lopez for the interview and discerning questions.

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   10/19/11 11:37

"Peter Singer, not once but twice, chided the defenders of abortion for misrepresenting the pro-life view."

Peter Singer, to me, represents the logical endpoint of the pro-abort argument. Others get caught up in their emotions and howl and yibber at pro-lifers for being "anti-woman" "theocrats". Singer realizes none of that matters. He believes there is no God, and what's more, understands that a decisive majority of Americans agree, not necessarily that there is no God but that they don't want to hear about Him. He knows that in that case, everything is permitted.

So what is the point, in that case, of arguing about the "morality" of it all? It's just an academic exercise. What really matters is that we're not going to stop aborting babies
because it's convenient for us, the adults, the sentient, the powerful. Why be obnoxious about it? That would just lead to unpleasantness. May as well be very fair to opposing views, knowing that in the end it won't matter because the public is snickering behind their hands at the idea that there is some type of "morality" that should be adhered to even when it is inconvenient.

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   10/19/11 18:19

Well, even if morality is extinct, we still have laws left over from the age of morality, like, f’rinstance, those prohibiting murder. So there is at minimum the legal necessity of distinguishing the criminal from the non-criminal. To do this some component of the crime of murder has to be denied in the case of abortion in order to assert that it does qualify as a crime. Clearly abortion is premeditated, so that is rarely the issue (as Kaczor mentions, unintentional fetal death does not qualify as abortion). Similarly few dispute that something is killed, that is, the fetus was alive before the operation, and dead after. No, the dispute almost always hinges on whether the fetus is “human”, so the pro-abortion position must invariably involve defining “human-ness” in some way that excludes fetuses. Morality may be invoked in such definitions but most likely there is some quasi-scientific or pragmatic justification (read: “rationalization”) that de-criminalizes the operation. So for philosophical consistency and legal clarity the validity of these justifications need to be examined quite apart from the morality of abortion per se.

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Mary De Voe
   11/09/11 12:32

The atheist discounts the wrath of God

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   10/19/11 11:49

1. Abortion and infanticide were both legal and common in Aristotle's Greece.
2. The Old Testament on abortion:

a.) Exodus 21:22-23:
"When men fight and one of them pushes a pregnant woman and a miscarriage results, but no other damage ensues, the one responsible shall be fined according as the woman's husband may exact from him, the payment to be based on reckoning. But if other damage ensues, the penalty shall be life for life

(Kill the fetus? Tort claim based on husband's property loss.
Kill the mother? Execute the perpetrator.)

b.) Numbers 5:20-22:
"Let the priest make the woman take the oath of the curse and say to the woman-- "the Lord make you an execration and an oath among your people, when the Lord makes your uterus drop, your woman discharge; now may this water that brings this curse enter your bowels and make your womb discharge, your uterus drop!" And the woman shall say "Amen, Amen."

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CapnBill
   10/19/11 15:08

The words translated "miscarriage" can be translated "the child comes forth." Does that actually mean miscarriage, with the implication of fetal death, or only an untimely delivery? If the child dies in association with an untimely delivery, could that be considered "other damage?" It's not as simple as you imply.

I'm not sure how the passage from Numbers applies here, as it deals with marital unfaithfulness.

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Mary De Voe
   11/09/11 13:02

INVOLUNTARY MANSLAUGHTER, in the death of the baby may carry a penalty of a fine set by the father and husband.
In cases of unfaithfulness, the curse will have no effect if the woman is innocent.

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   10/19/11 12:25

With all the stories of faculty at Catholic schools being on the other side of this debate, it's great and encouraging to see an interview like this one.

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   10/19/11 12:34

The idea that desire requires judgment seems rather iffy to me, though I understand it has a fine pedigree. If we were to look at conation instead of a more narrowly defined concept of "desire," then I wonder if Boonin would still be correct about young fetuses. My understanding is that young fetuses (say at 20 weeks) do in fact exhibit a conatus or a "desire" to live. The fact that young fetuses recoil from sharp instruments is commonly taken as evidence that they experience pain, yet is just as clearly evidence that they desire to live. They want to protect themselves and keep themselves intact.

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Christopher Kaczor
   10/19/11 13:21

Concerning rape, I had this to say about it in my book: "Unfortunately, nothing, including having an abortion, can undo a rape. However, to bear a child conceived in these most difficult of circumstances is to perform an act that is in complete contradiction of what takes place in a rape. In rape, a man assaults an innocent human being; in nurturing life, a woman protects an innocent human being. In rape, a man undermines the freedom of another; in nurturing life, a woman grants freedom to another. In rape, a man imposes himself to the great detriment of another; in nurturing life, a woman makes a gift of herself to the great benefit of another. While, unfortunately, rape once perpetrated can never be undone, the rationalizations, maxims, and motives of rape are never so completely rejected as when someone chooses life in the most difficult circumstances, circumstances that make such a choice heroic. Like other women in crisis situations, women who face pregnancies due to rape deserve unconditional love and compassion whether they choose abortion or not. But true love and compassion includes honesty about difficult moral truths and even, sometimes, a call to heroic generosity."

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   10/19/11 17:55

I appreciate your position, and your paean to your birth mother is quite moving. Yet I do think you may be on shaky ground to argue that a thing that is morally required is also heroic, particularly when the immoral choice requires an act while the moral choice requires declining to kill. If killing a fetus is so terrible a thing to do, how can it be heroic to decline to do it?

Similarly, I would have to question your statements that unconditional love and compassion are always required, no matter what the mother chooses. Are unconditional love and compassion always called for when a mother kills her child who has already been born? I agree that the mother's state of mind is relevant to the question, but I find it hard to believe that most mothers don't understand what they are doing; all the discussions even among pro-choice people about how difficult the choice is suggest that they do know. In any case, your statements about love and compassion seem to apply regardless of the mother's state of mind.

I'm not trying to be hard-hearted here, just philosophically and morally consistent.

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Mary De Voe
   11/09/11 12:45

Decling to kill is an act of the free will. Abortion is an act of the not so free will, the tyranny imposed by unloving ignorance and sin itself (immorality)

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   10/19/11 13:38

"My point was fairly simple that if you and I were fused into one — say via a machine like a Star Trek transporter gone amuck — that would not mean that you and I aren’t still individual, independent persons. So too, if human embryos fuse in utero, this does not mean that there weren’t two independent, individual embryos prior to fusion."

O--kaay.....

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Mary De Voe
   11/09/11 17:38

Siamese twins who have not fully separated have two free wills, two rational souls, two sovereign personhoods and are two persons conjoined.
In fact, identical twins never touch each other while in utero because of the amniotic sac, and cannot touch each other until after birth. When two become one, a new immortal soul is created and infused by God. When two become one in the covanent of Matrimony, it is an exchange of souls, but both souls are transformed by the sacrament.

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