From a reader:
With regard to the phosphates in dishwashing detergents, you can actually buy many of the same phosphates in granular form in the paint section of Lowe’s or Home Depot. The powdered phosphates look exactly like the old dishwashing powder. Anyhow, for about three months now we have been mixing these phosphates with the liquid dishwashing detergent from Costco and we have been very satisfied with the results. We run the dishwashwer the same as we did before and the dishes come out clean and spot free just like before.
"In the mid 1960s, many of the nation's rivers and lakes were rapidly turning green and choking with aquatic plant growth. A primary reason for these deleterious changes in water quality was the high levels of phosphorus, one of several major plant nutrients, found in domestic and municipal sewage effluents. The principal source of effluent phosphorus was from phosphates used in laundry detergents."
For those who are curious why phosphates were banned in the first place:
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Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseFor once I agree with Televangelist. There is ample reason for banning phosphates, though such actions should be taken on a local/regional/watershed level.
It is a mindless conservatism that does not recognize the commonweal.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseYeah, phosphorus is so much of a problem that it was only banned as a chemical in dishwashing liquid in seventeen states but allowed to be bought in pure form for the sake of feeding plants.
By the way, phosphorus is a key chemical in animal droppings. I wonder how much phosphorus from animal droppings figure into the excessive phosphorous in streams. :P
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseIn the late 60s I was working on an archaeogical dig in Georgia. The clay was so dense and sticky, we had to soak the dirt in detergent before we could sort through it to find artifacts, bones, etc. To speed up the process, we added water, clay, and a cup of trisodium phosphate to each 1 gallon bucket. Alternatively, we'd sometimes use an entire box of Calgon. After soaking the soil overnight, we'd dump the water in a nearby river. I was probably personally responsible for putting 500 cups of phosphate in the river -- and years of algae blooms in the Gulf of Mexico.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseThanks for the hint; I shall try it, for I spent over $600 for a new dishwasher last year. It does not remotely get the dishes clean, and I have not used it for over 6 months - doing the dishes by hand, just like great-grandma in her house on the farm. Phooey.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseI'm fascinated by how many men have warmed to this topic. If someone from Madison Avenue is reading: you have your next ad campaign...
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseWonderful: people are stuck with dirty, greasy, potentially germ-ridden dishes due to ineffective dishwasher detergent, but at least the algae are okay. Up is down...
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseI really find this unbelievable. I am all for requiring high levels of scientific evidence and skeptically weighing costs vs benefits in assessing environmental regulations, but there is really no doubt at all about the damage caused to our waterways by excessive phosphorous from home water discharge. And the cost of avoiding it is absolutely minimal - at worst, you might need to scrub an extra plate now and then.
But to read a post like this almost suggests that to be a sound conservative, one must NEVER modify one's behavior or suffer the slightest inconvenience in order to preserve the environment, even as a matter of personal responsibility.
Is this really what we have become?
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseNote that the ban is only for non-commercial sales of dishwashing detergent. You little people don't have a lobby like the restaurant and institutional associations, do you?
Non-phosphate dishwashing detergent doesn't work. Do you want to set your table with white shmutz and old dried food on your plates? Don't want to wash dishes by hand like great-grandma and just use your dishwasher for storage?
Do what I did. Google around. Find commercial dishwasher powder that is still sold to institutions and restaurants. Buy a bunch. Store it next to your ample supply of incandescent light bulbs.
Raise your fist in the air and stick it to the man....maaaaaaaannnnn!!!
Reply to this commentLinkReport Abuse"Anyhow, for about three months now we have been mixing these phosphates with the liquid dishwashing detergent from Costco and we have been very satisfied with the results. We run the dishwashwer the same as we did before and the dishes come out clean and spot free just like before."
Why do you hate your Mother Gaea?
Hey, if fish don't like algae, let them adapt. That's what God invented evolution for, isn't it?
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseYes, animal droppings are rich in phosphates, which is one reason why contained feeding operations, if their waste disposal is unregulated, are horrible for the environment. And yes it is a problem that businesses have enough clout to buy themselves loopholes. Still why should we add more phosphates to the damage being done.
I find it strange that supposed 'conservatives' are so cavalier about the environment. This isn't global warming, a hard to measure phenomenon. It is proven science. And its not the algae folks are worried about -- its the algae's boom, sucking up all the oxygen in the water, and then dying. Ever seen a 'red tide' -- not pretty, not pleasing to the nose, and hard on fish and fishermen. You'd think that at least at the crass economic level, 'conservatives' would be concerned about harm to streams and rivers and coastal environments.
The fact is that government and local environmental regulations have had many successes in the last 30 years. We don't have rivers catching on fire anymore. The air in LA and other cities is noticeably cleaner and healthier. Sometimes government regulation or prohibition makes sense.
Reply to this commentLinkReport Abuse""Non-phosphate dishwashing detergent doesn't work. Do you want to set your table with white shmutz and old dried food on your plates? Don't want to wash dishes by hand like great-grandma and just use your dishwasher for storage?""
Yes, your concerns about 'shmutz' are clearly on the same level as serious concerns about ecosystem protection.
...sigh.
Reply to this commentLinkReport Abuse""For once I agree with Televangelist. There is ample reason for banning phosphates, though such actions should be taken on a local/regional/watershed level.""
SouthOC, I like the principle of devolving these issues as far as you can, but I generally make an exception for issues concerning waterways and their regulation -- there's a reason that the federal government has the power to grapple with inter-state commerce.
Crucially important waterways have a nasty habit of crossing jurisdictional lines and becoming the cause of thorny conflicts.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseTelevangelist points to an interesting article - but all it does is trace the history of the phosphate scare and resulting public policy.
There is no scientific discussion beyond assurances that "the science is settled".
There is also no discussion of whether the decades-long ban on phosphates in some states has actually improved the water quality in those states' lakes and waterways.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseThanks for the tip.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseAnimal droppings is the most significant contributor to poor water quality and algae growth. Phosphorous found in effluent comes from many things, including from the animals we eat. Removing it from detergent doesn't change the treatment methods used, the cost effectiveness of removing P to very low concentrations, or the quality of the water produced by public wastewater treatment facilities.
The irony of public wastewater treatment plants is that you can spend a lot of money to remove P and nitrates from the wastestream, discharge the treated to a water body or stream, and one flock of ducks can go by offset any reduction in P and nitrates in short order.
Reply to this commentLinkReport Abuse"The fact is that government and local environmental regulations have had many successes in the last 30 years. We don't have rivers catching on fire anymore. The air in LA and other cities is noticeably cleaner and healthier. Sometimes government regulation or prohibition makes sense."
I'm not so sure you should claim that LA has clean air. In lieu of supposedly clean air, LA has some really poor streets, crime is high as well as unemployment. In other words, LA is becoming an unlivable city.
I also would not be quick to give the government credit for the Cuyahoga River fire:
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"I find it strange that supposed 'conservatives' are so cavalier about the environment."
I'm not cavalier about the environment; it's people like you who are. You regard the environment as sacred above all else and your only way to address the environment is to try and prevent TRUE human progress and revert back to a time when humanity did not have the perceived impact upon the Earth. Instead of finding solutions to the externality with which human ingenuity has created, you instead want to eliminate the creation of human ingenuity. How much better it would be (and more intellectually satisfying) to find a solution that allows man to KEEP phosphorous detergent (again, only banned for the meager people who have to wash dishes at home) and to control algae growth in the river.
In other words, I am not against a clean environment, but against people who live only for the environment. You guys who are railing against conservatives against this probably haven't read the article: People who have the spots on their dishes are washing them twice, and using more energy to do so. How green is that?
"There is also no discussion of whether the decades-long ban on phosphates in some states has actually improved the water quality in those states' lakes and waterways."
Exactly, but there is the perception that they are saving the environment. That is what matters above all else.
Reply to this commentLinkReport Abuse"Do what I did. Google around. Find commercial dishwasher powder that is still sold to institutions and restaurants. Buy a bunch. Store it next to your ample supply of incandescent light bulbs."
Now that I think about it, I have about a half-dozen giant boxes of Cascade I bought at Costco last spring in a cabinet. It's just one of those things we buy a ton of because it doesn't expire and we have the room to store it.
I wonder what the black market is going to be for it...I got "the good stuff". It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad Max World.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseI am an environmental engineer. I design your local wastewater treatment plants and septic systems. There is NO reason phosphates should be eliminated from residential detergents today. I design your wastewater plants to remove the nutrients already, and not having the nurtients in the incoming waste hurts the treatment process and the environment.
Why did environmentalists do this anyway, despite our wastewater treatment systems? Simply to feel good and to project power. It is sad...Raise your voice to your political representatives, it does not need to be this way. You already payed billions of dollars to protect the environment at you wastewater plants, now you are paying again by having the government interfer in your daily lives.
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