I keep hearing people try to defend the Democratic legislators in Wisconsin who’ve fled town. Last night Juan Williams tried to make the case that they were similar to the Republicans who just said no to Obama’s agenda. But the analogy only works if you consider fleeing the state in order to prevent a quorum to be just another legitimate parliamentary tactic.
And if you do believe that, the hypocrisy cuts both ways. Republican obstruction, via threats of a filibuster etc., were not only denounced by all of the usual suspects, they were taken as a sign that the American system was broken. Or as John Podesta famously put it at the time, America’s political system “sucks.” Tom Friedman argued that Republican refusal to cave to the Obama agenda was proof that China’s tyrannical system was preferable to our own. Let’s not even recap Paul Krugman.
But now, even though Governor Walker ran on this agenda and won, many of the same voices are celebrating the fugitive lawmakers as heroes. Or they simply have nothing to say on the matter, save to condemn the Republicans for keeping their campaign promise and trying to do their jobs.
Exactly. Walker is taking action for the simple pedestrian reason that the state is broke.
OBTW, the NY Times has been doing wage and benefit cram downs on its unions for a couple of years. How come we don't see raucous demonstrators in front of the Time's Building?
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseThe same thing is happening here in Indiana today over pending Right To Work legislation which would be incredibly beneficial to the state. Frustrating.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseWhy have quorum rules in the first place if not to open up the possibility of preventing it? If existing filibuster rules means that filibustering every single piece of legislation is a legitimate parliamentary tactic, then shouldn't existing quorum rules mean that the Democrats in Wisconsin are using legitimate parliamentary tactics?
I support filibuster reform, but that doesn't mean I think the Republicans were somehow acting illegally or illegitimately. It makes sense for the minority party in a legislature to find a way to act within the procedural rules to maximum their influence on policy outcomes. You can disagree with what the Democrats have chosen to do - and I certainly disagreed with what Republicans have done the past two years - but don't pretend that using quorum rules to their advantage is somehow different from using filibuster rules to the Republicans' advantage.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseThe Wisconsin Dems are actually quite similar to the old-school filibuster ---- there's nothing permanent about their tactic, as they will eventually come home, and majority rules will prevail.
It's similar in effect to a "Mr. Smith" type talkathon filibuster.
The current US Senate filibuster only requires the minority to say "nope" and the vote doesn't happen.
The Wisconsin Dems tactic is far more fair to majority-rules democracy than the current US Senate filibuster, in that they are only buying time instead of permanently killing a vote.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseOne NRO commentator, I think it was IowaDove had a good response to all this. He said the call by Democrats for the Governor to negotiate with the union actually makes a lot of sense. After all, the Democrats are rejecting the democratic, republican process itself. (A filibuster is part of that process, and so there's no parallel there. If our legislators don't like it they can vote to rid themselves of it. )
Gov. Walker wants the Dems to return to the democratic process. The Dems refuse, and have ceded power to the union mob. And if one of two parties have given up on our democratic process, well then we really don't have a democratic government at work anymore in Wisconsin and therefore we don't need Republicans either.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseRegular people know the difference. Running away like a coward from a fight is so *not* American, I don't even know how to talk about it. It's yellow, and if it's one thing American's hate, it's a coward. This is Jay Cutler on steroids.
As sickening as it is, this is as good as it gets for limited government conservatism. And "this" now includes Indiana! Like the old saying goes, "When an opponent is making a fool out of himself...let him."
The NYT (!!!) ran a report today that the people of WI are soundly behind the Governor. They even quoted *union* members who are pro Walker. The NYT is running up the white flag. Meanwhile, the virus has spread, and it's probably too late for Obama (who now owns the mob) to put the genie back in the bottle.
Have you noticed how quiet Obama has been about this since his original public statement? Yeah!
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseJonah, silly,
Only Republicans claim universal principles, so only Republicans can be hypocrites.
Did I get it right, liberals? I've heard it so many times, but it still makes no sense.
Reply to this commentLinkReport Abuse@Rocket-Squirrel: I don't understand. Demanding "let's negotiate" when you've lost (an election was held specially on this issue) is a bit like Bin Laden at Tora Bora...an attempt to take advantage of good people to make a get-away. The GOP sees right through it. It's a stall tactic and if they cave, the Democrats will declare "victory" and demand additional concessions.
Personally, I liked Walker's response. Reminds me of this gem from "The Fifth Element" (a bit gross):
External Link
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseNow that Indiana democrats have followed suit, can we rename the democrat party the Flee Party?
If the WI democrats don't come back by this weekend, wisconsin misses out on an opportunity to refinance tens of millions of dollars of debt. That will lead to state workers being fired- the same workers these democrats claim they are vacationing in illinois for.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseMaybe I am wrong, but Gov. Walker did not run on busting the public employee unions, only taking a hard line with them. In the context of 50 years of public employee unions it is not unreasonable to assume that "taking a hard line" means being a tough negotiator not eliminating negotiations.
And really, when you can only bargain over how much of a cut you are going to take in your real wage in any given year that is the elimination of negotiations.
I think it is a bit disingenuous to claim that the Republicans are just keeping campaign promises when eliminating public employee unions was not a campaign promise.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseMy big problem with what the WI Senate Dems have done is that it violates the rules that compel them to attend. I rather like the idea of changing the rules to say that you can go ahead and hold up a quorum if you're willing to leave the state to do so. Antimajoritarian measures should exist, but they should be costly to the minority that is trying to hold things up; requiring that they leave the state (and be quite visible to the voters as obstructionists) strikes me as a reasonable cost. But, again, it's not currently legal.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseRepublicans aren't proposing to eliminate public employee unions.
Who's being disingenuous now?
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseAiden,
Just in case you really don't know the answer to why we have quorum rules they are to prevent abuse. Lets say Gov Walker planned on having a secret legislative session and only told his allies about the time. They could show up, vote, and leave before anybody knew what happened. Quorum rules are designed to prevent that kind of action.
They are not meant to be used to flee regularly scheduled legislative sessions.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseI cannot believe people are actually defending the WI Democrats (and now IN) abdication of their sworn duties as being a perfectly legitimate part of the democratic process.
Beyond being a stupid argument, aren't you people just embarrassed about siding with a group that uses "Run away! Run away!" as a policy position?
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseHow dare you have the temerity to point out the obvious! Of course there is a double standard. The forces of good and right and social justice (just don't ask what that means) can employ any tactic to ensure they prevail.
However, when conservatives employ the same tactics, they must be condemmed, since their motives simply cannot be as pure (since they are by definition, racist, sexist, homophobic haters of the poor and downtrodden).
(Ok, turning the sarcasm off now, my fingers are ready to rebel)
Reply to this commentLinkReport Abuse"Why have quorum rules in the first place if not to open up the possibility of preventing it?"
A legal historian could correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that this idea flips on its head the original purpose of requiring a quorum to pass laws. I believe that the original concern was that a faction might *prevent* lawmakers in the opposition from being present in order to ensure passage of legislation in their absence. Demanding a quorum, then, protected minority rights by removing an incentive to shut them out.
Admittedly, this is a double-edged sword, and can be exploited by a minority to the opposite effect.
Interestingly, in Federalist Paper #58, Madison warns about abuses of quorum by minorities and explains that the threshold for quorum should be kept to a simple majority in order to avoid such abuses.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseCDeb,
If the only thing a union can do is negotiate over the size of the wage cut (in real terms) that its members will take, then the point of a union has been eliminated. Why bother?
Plus, my union is scheduled for actual termination.
Reply to this commentLinkReport Abusenorthcountrylib, you could have stopped at "Maybe I am wrong"
You ARE wrong. Everything Walker is doing he promised to do over the past several years if elected. Unions even ran ads and told their members that Walker would be doing what he is trying to do right now.
Of course, being typical liberals, they now ignore what he said and even what they wrote about him during the campaign.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseI believe northcountylib is right. Walker did not campaign on smashing the unions, so this agenda has come out of rightfield (so to speak). If someone can post a link showing I am wrong, I will happily apologize, but until then, Jonah is wrong.
And I wonder how many people lambasting the Democratic lawmakers for being cowards or frustrating democracy by not showing up know that Abraham Lincoln rather famously jumped out a window to try to prevent a quorum for a vote on early adjurnment. Here is a link to the story of Lincoln being a 'coward' or 'giving up on the democratic process' External Link
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseThis is one of those situation where the bubble the Democrats inhabit prevents from realizing that they are about to go over a cliff. Oh the joy that floods my soul.
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