Via Der Spiegel (again):
A German political scientist discusses those primitive Americans:
Münkler: Two thousand years ago, a Roman politician would have been able to publicly express his pleasure at getting his revenge. The crucial difference is that Western politicians today are people who are influenced by Christianity, people who are bound to the idea of mercy. Only someone who believes in the existence of ‘evil’ and who does not explain ‘evil’ in terms of an unhappy childhood, someone who upholds the Old Testament principle of an eye for eye and a tooth for tooth, is justified in publicly expressing their joy at the death of an enemy and their satisfaction at getting revenge. The Americans’ reactions to bin Laden’s death therefore mainly reflect the fact that they have different values (from Europeans).
SPIEGEL ONLINE: At Ground Zero in New York, people openly rejoiced about the death of bin Laden. The images were reminiscent of Muslims celebrating in the Gaza Strip after the 9/11 attacks. Do you think that is acceptable?
Münkler: For European observers, these kinds of public gatherings are indeed somewhat embarrassing, because they demonstrate a kind of unthinking naïveté, and also because there is something provocative about them. But it was only a small number of Americans who demonstrated their feelings so openly, just as in 2001 it was only a few Muslims who were happy about the thousands who were killed in the terror attacks. Nevertheless, the photos of the revelers at Ground Zero have now become the definitive symbol of the entire nation’s mood. That is something that cannot be changed, unfortunately.
Yes please have a German lecture us, the birthplace of Nazism and the greatest evil (along with Stalin and Mao) perpretrated on humankind.
No sense of irony or self reflection for these idiots.
As a reminder we cheered when Germany surrendered after we leveled half of YOUR NATION. Still bitter perhaps?
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseDid bin Laden have an unhappy childhood? I thought he grew up fairly rich and happy.
Seems to me that in bin Laden, if no one else, we have someone with no Freudian excuse for what he did. I would be tempted to turn the argument around on our German intellectual: only someone with an absolute faith in the non-existence of evil could put quotes around that word when discussing bin Laden.
Reply to this commentLinkReport Abuse"The Americans’ reactions to bin Laden’s death therefore mainly reflect the fact that they have different values (from Europeans)."
That is true. We believe in freedom and we know that 'freedom isn't free', whereas the 'Europeans' believe in 'Free-Riding' when it comes to ensuring that THEY remain free.
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If only I owned an ATV and a handgun, this is what I'd be doing.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseHow does Herr Munkler determine that the feeling was revenge of killing and not satisfaction of justice or joy of the removal of a continuing threat? Did he conduct a poll? Is he revealing his primitive biases towards Americans?
Perhaps Munkler should stick with physics, a more straightforward science may better fit his disposition.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseAccording to Mr. Münkler, it is Americans who are plagued by unthinking naïveté, while geniuses around the world mistake the revelry of a few thousand people at Ground Zero - many of whom didn't know who OBL was or what he did - for the mood of a nation of 300 million. I wonder if Mr. Münkler grasped the absurdity of what he said, i.e., how unfortunate for the Americans that the world is full of narrow-minded bigots looking for a reason to criticize those they envy.
Reply to this commentLinkReport Abuse"...they demonstrate a kind of unthinking naïveté..."
WHO'S BEING NAIVE, KAY?
Reply to this commentLinkReport Abuse65 years ago Munkler would have been goose stepping and sieg heiling at the top of his lungs every time Goebbels produced a newsreel of the Fuhrer's latest victory.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseI'm astonished that he seems to think that Christians shouldn't possess a belief in the existence of evil--or joy in justice.
Proverbs 21:5
"When justice is done, it is a joy to the righteous but terror to evildoers."
I think Solomon would be surprised to learn he was articulating naive American values.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseI have to admit to being disquieted by the sights and sounds of people who seemed to view this as some sort of national sporting event. Chants of USA are over the top at times like this. However, I suspect that timing had something to do with it (who comes out at 1130 PM on the East Coast but young people and those at bars?). Imagine what would have happened had this occurred on Saturday as planned? It would have been bedlam.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseIronically, David Brooks column today explains Osama in terms of his "unhappy childhood" -- I guess Brooks and Munkler are on the same sophisticated European wavelength!
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseIn a not-so-recent posting Jay Nordlinger recounts meeting a female tourist in Europe during the Reagan years. According to Jay, she was so ashamed of being an American that she hoped she could pass herself as German. And this was barely 40 years after the Holocaust.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseAmericans always cheer when our teams win. Football, baseball, baskeball, whatever. And on Sunday night, our national team won big. Defeating evil is an existentialist necessity, and Herr Muenkler is unthinkingly naive if he does not understand it.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseFor a person like Muenkler, who operates on such a superior intellectual plane, his garbled logic is astonishing - he should ask for a redo:
1. Given his euro-intellectual bona fides, I'm sure he is a staunch supporter of all things Palestinian in their fight against the evil Zionists...so, isn't it GOOD to act comparably to those paragons of civil society?
2. Just in case it isn't - where is the moral equivalence in celebrating the targeted death of an individual who directed the operation designed to INTENTIONALLY kill thousands of civilians going about their daily lives and celebrating the death of those very same civilians?
If this is the best Europe has to offer, they are in more trouble than even I thought.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseThe Europeans have always treated americans as lowly colonials and have looked down their sophisticated noses at us.
Why is anyone suprised at his attitude?
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseHerr Munkler is a poster boy for a collapsed civilization on Continental Europe. A collapsed civilization run by preening elites who have never known a moral code based on freedom coupled with personal responsibility, a moral code based on Judeo-Christian just retribution to wrongdoers, not for revenge, but to punish evil to protect the innocent. These concepts are all foreign to elites such as Munkler. Someday-- too soon-- today's soft socialism of Continental Europe will again morph into some ugly form of National or ethnic Socialism, and the horrors of 20th century Europe will repeat. Today's collapsed European civilization guarantees that nightmare.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseZach - Quoting Proverbs hardly disproves his point about "someone who upholds the Old Testament principle of an eye for eye and a tooth for tooth."
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseYou can argue that the joy is understandable - but we shouldn't water down the message of Christianity and say that joy in the death of another (however evil) is an exemplification of Christian virtues.
I bite, let’s compare:
-Number of Wars of Religion fought by Europe: Crusades, 30 Years War, etc
-Number of Wars of Religion fought by America: Zero
-Number of Genocides, Expulsions and Pogroms attempted against the Jews by Europe: One Genocide, dozens of expulsions, and hundreds of pogroms.
-Number of Genocides, Expulsions and Pogroms attempted against the Jews by America: Zero.
Please tell me again how Americans are so much less civilized and religiously tolerant than Europeans?
Reply to this commentLinkReport Abuse".. just as in 2001 it was only a few Muslims who were happy about the thousands who were killed in the terror attacks."
Good grief, there was outpouring of joy from Cairo to Jakharta by tens of thousands of arabs.
Reply to this commentLinkReport Abuse"-Number of Genocides, Expulsions and Pogroms attempted against the Jews by Europe: One Genocide, dozens of expulsions, and hundreds of pogroms."
Is your ethnocentricity is showing?
There were 94 million non Jewish victims of genocide in the last century with many many millions at the hand of the Nazis.
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