So it is your view, Kathryn, that the action of democratically elected representatives, who are accountable to the citizens of the State of New York, is tyrannical in a way that justifies comparison to North Korea, a state in which an absolute ruler has burned people alive in a stadium. Okay. But now I want a new word for what “tyranny” used to mean.
I would like to see the reaction of a North Korean refugee to your claim.
It would also be nice if you troubled yourself to make an argument.
Update: I see that several commenters find my tone beyond the pale. With respect, I think y’all are way too sensitive. The harshest thing here is the sarcasm of “trouble yourself,” which strikes me as mild by the standards of polemical writing generally and writing at NRO (including posts by commenters) in particular.
That said, Kathryn, I am sorry if I offended you.
I stand by my statement that it would be nice to have an argument for the North Korea comparison. (And yes, I meant on Monday; it was a challenge and an invitation.) I hope no one will be terribly hurt if I voice my opinion that writing on marriage and other contentious social issues, from both sides, deals too often in rhetorically overheated and undefended claims — and that NRO is not often enough an exception.
Update II: A few others seem to think I don’t know that Kathryn was responding to Mike’s North Korea reference. What they don’t know is that Mike was himself referencing Archbishop Timothy Dolan, who wrote, in connection with the New York legislation, “Last time I consulted an atlas, it is clear we are living in New York, in the United States of America — not in China or North Korea.” This is the claim — to my mind both absurd and offensive to North Koreans — that Kathryn proposes to defend.
(@Rook: Sure thing!) Update III: The comparison is also offensive to people who agree with or voted for the legislation. It will be good to find out whether Kathryn thinks the procedure of enactment is tyrannical, the substance, or both. I hope, in offering an exegesis of the context of the Dolan quote, she will say what she understands by “dictate,” and how the process of enactment constituted dictatorial tyranny of a kind specifically similar to the North Korean or Chinese (as opposed to, say, the Canadian), and how what has happened here is that the state has presumed omnipotence in a North Korean or Chinese fashion rather than the people’s having wickedly done this through their elected representatives, through whom they may also change their minds — a process not commonly witnessed, I do believe, in North Korea or China. All this if the point is that the procedure of enactment is tyrannical. If the substance, I suppose she can just mention the famous North Korean and Chinese tendency to redefine civil marriage as New York has done, and we will grant its deviance from her understanding of natural law, and the equivalence of this with tyranny, without requiring her here to defend all that. (Note: Last sentence edited post-publication.)
Update the Last: Insofar as I depart from the spirit of what Mike just wrote, I too deserve rebuke. Let us choose words slowly and with more care. Peace.
Is this National Review? I didn't expect to see dirty laundry aired in front of everyone here.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseAre you kidding me? This is The Corner. Disagreement between the writers is a staple of this creation.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseIndeed it is, but not with so much venom.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseActually, I think we're witnessing the laws of physics being proven here. Comparing the New York legislature's actions with a communist dictatorship deserved an equal and opposite reaction. I believe that was Sir Isaac, but I could be mistaken.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseI'll let K-Lo speak for herself, but I believe she was not comparing a democratically elected New York legislature's actions with Tyranny, but rather the soft tyranny of the culture enforcing only one permissible point of view about an issue, and enforcing it with faux tolerance, to boot.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseI think that's true. They managed to remain polite even when they were arguing with David Frum before he left. And when Kathleen Parker discovered how gratifying it was to be praised by the mainstream media.
Jason's contemptuous tone with K-Lo was the same as that routinely adopted toward her on HuffPo and Kos.
I'm not sure what the North Korea comparison was, but this law was passed by an actual vote of democratically elected state legislators, so I can't see it as tyranny.
I think it's arguably regrettable social policy, but why all the shock? This is New York we are talking about, after all. Clearly the blue states are trending toward adding SSM to their beautiful rainbow tapestry (and not just at court mandate).
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseWow, this guy is kind of arrogant. It's it necessary to talk down to K Lo like that?
Nothing seems to excite some of these underbloggers at The Corner like gay marriage. :)
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseI'd like to add that the very tyranny she alludes to, is being enforced, now, here, by you Jason Lee Steorts. She has the right to disagree with gay marriage on whatever grounds she pleases, or none at all. If only one view is 'right' or can be tolerated, and the other must be shunned or belittled, is that not a form of soft tyranny?
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseIt's not "tyranny" to challenge someone to defend their position. It looks like you need to consult a dictionary as well.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseI never said it was.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseYes, absurd arguments do deserve belittlement. No, that is not soft serve tyranny or tyranny-lite or anything having to do with tyranny.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseWhen is the last time you saw Jason Lee Steorts or Michael Potmuru criticize the Obama admin with this kind of passion?
When is the last time you saw Jason Lee Steorts post anything? :)
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseFrankly, if that impenetrable Ph.D dissertation proposal masquerading as an article (External Link
) is any indication, I can go a fair few miles without any further postings from Jason. The last time I recall read anything that hyperanalytically tendentious was the assigned readings of his own work by a U of C philosophy professor. I did leave the class enriched by the perspective that life was too short to spend navel gazing, and with empirical evidence that it *was* indeed possible to intellectually crawl up your own r*ctum and die.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseSpot on! My dissertation read nothing like Jason's (perhaps this is why it was published).
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseIn the last few years, "Tyranny" has come to mean everything from expanding civil rights to telling big kids not to pick on little kids. Basically, if someone who believes they are privy to The Truth doesn't like it, they label it tyranny, even when it plainly isn't.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseJason, the comparison may a little hyperbolic, but not by much. The parties in NY are little different from each other, making elections often a sham, although not on the scale of NK. it seems to be the same in every state. This is more ammo for people who say the parties, Republican and Democrat, are little different from each other. Gay marriage with a religious exception, Romney care or Obama care. Hard to say which knife feels better.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseHear hear Mr. Steorts.
Let's get on with the inevitable: the bifurcation of the right. There is no room in my tent for intolerance brought about by an evil that is as nearly aged as dirt itself: the desire to install a religious conviction through the application of central law.
We are a secular nation by design - for as simple a reason as it is sound: non-secular nations have a patently poor historical record.
Those desiring codification of a religious postulate, most especially in the form of a Federal standard, share far more with enemies like radical Islamists than they'd ever fear. Ms. Lopez's dogmatism is akin to those that drive the disgustingly unthoughtful in theaters we war in today.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseAnd we want a new word for what "marriage" used to mean, so now maybe you understand the issue.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseThis is an entirely inappropriate post in terms of tone. It has no place on The Corner. KLo said more Monday - you should have had the forbearance to await her longer argument. In the meantime, a minor leaguer shouldn't bother himself to bare his fangs and shoot such venom. Shame on you, Jason Lee Steorts. If you disagreed, you could have politely stated as much with a note that you awaited her promised explication.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseJason Lee Who? Sounds like you took K-Lo's point a little too personally. Is there a reason?
Reply to this commentLinkReport Abuse