Nicole, c’mon. You’ve “never heard of the authorities trying to ‘reform’ a Ponzi scheme”? How long do you figure I’d have kept my job as a young government lawyer if I’d knocked on Rudy Giuliani’s door and said, “Boss, I know this Ponzi thing looks bad. But it’s been a good deal for a lot of people for a long time. Maybe, instead of enforcing the fraud laws, we should just persuade him to reform it!”
The reasons private Ponzi schemes get prosecuted have nothing to do with whether they are beyond salvaging. The fraudster cannot reform without confessing to having committed a crime to that point; his sudden desire to go straight would not be a legal defense against the fraud he has already perpetrated. And the government has no obligation to reform a fraud scheme it had no responsibility for designing in the first place. No one asks whether the private Ponzi scheme should be reformed. We prosecute in order to signal to other would-be Bernie Madoffs that society is not going to tolerate deceptions of this kind.
The difference between a fraudulent government program and a fraudulent private scheme is that the former cannot be prosecuted. As you know far better than I do, the government exempts itself from the regulations, bookkeeping requirements, and criminal laws it imposes on private businesses (and the Constitution’s Speech and Debate Clause broadly immunizes members of Congress from prosecution for legislative activity). But the fact that officialdom holds itself above the law does not make its deceptive schemes any less fraudulent.
As a great admirer of your work, I’m very surprised by your claim that Social Security’s designers and perpetuators have not attempted to perpetrate a fraud. The program was hatched in fraud. As I pointed out yesterday, FDR pretended it was an insurance program in order to sell it to the public; once Congress enacted it, he then told the courts it was not an insurance program but a tax in order to get it upheld (by justices he had successfully intimidated with a court-packing plan). He later admitted that disingenuously portraying the tax as a contribution for earned insurance benefits was “politics all the way through.” The goal was never to make the economics work. As you correctly point out, they don’t work, and FDR was well aware of that fact. The goal was to make sure, as he put it, that “no damn politician can ever scrap my social security program.” Fostering a sense of public entitlement, he presciently reasoned, would induce politicians to position themselves as defenders of this entitlement — and never you mind the math.
Furthermore, the real objective of Social Security was not to set up a retirement insurance program. It was to lay the foundation for a full-blown entitlement state, complete with socialized healthcare. The original plan included a Medicare component, which was abandoned because FDR realized it would jeopardize passage of social security. (The push on Medicare, as I’ve recounted before, was renewed immediately after passage — although it took 30 years, due to deep opposition from the public and the medical profession.) As Gov. Perry points out in his book, while feigning to address a “crisis,” Social Security (like Obamacare) collected the taxes (“contributions”) for several years (from 1935 to 1942) before any benefits were paid out; and the eligibility age was pegged at 62 even though life expectancy was then 60. The goal was not to ensure a decent retirement for “beneficiaries”; it was to erect — in incremental stealth — an entitlement state that the public would never have supported if Progressives had been forthright about their ambitions. Social security was the foot in the door.
Your resort to “or should know” gives the game away. Yes, you admit, Social Security “has a long-run mismatch between revenue and expenses.” And yes, it commingles the contributors’ funds, just like a Ponzi scheme. But by your lights, this is not “outright fraud” (non-outright fraud is OK?) because, by now, “everyone knows, or should know” that this is how the system works.
But why should we know? Is it because the pols have honestly disclosed it to us as they require private businesses to do? Emphatically, no: They’ve been jiving us for 80 years about an “insurance program” (i.e., a redistribution scheme) in which eventual “beneficiaries” (welfare recipients) make “contributions” (pay taxes) into a “trust fund”/”lock-box” (a pot that Congress raids at will) which protects our “accounts” (the IOUs with which Big Government replaces the funds it swipes — paper promises that will have to be satisfied by crushing taxes imposed on future taxpayers). As you quite correctly say, the goal of a Ponzi scheme is “to perpetuate the fraud to enrich its designers.” Big Government is duly enriched, probably beyond FDR’s wildest dreams.
Your argument boils down to this: Social security can’t be fraud because, after eight decades, the nature of the scheme is so palpable that we should be deemed to have consented to it even if it is not quite what it was advertised to be. This is reminiscent of Bernie Madoff’s “net winners,” to whom you referred in your first post. Upon inspection, a lot of the potential investors Madoff attempted to recruit told the early investors (a/k/a, the net winners) that the scheme seemed too good to be true. But the early investors didn’t want to hear it. They rationalized: Sure something seems fishy, but it’s been going on for years without interference from the regulators and prosecutors, and as long as I’m getting good returns, why should I ask questions about whether it’s all on the up and up?
“Social Security is a government program,” you say, “and a popular one[.]” Yep, Ponzi schemes are always popular … until they collapse. And after they collapse, the fact that the early investors “should have known” that the scheme was a fraud is held against them. The neon clarity of the fraud, and their conscious avoidance of it, does not change the unpleasant fact that fraud it was.
Much of the commentary opposing relating Social Security to a Ponzi scheme boils down to this: Social Security is legal and was not designed or implemented by Mr. Ponzi. Analogy is not permitted.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseI believe Drs Krauthammer and Sowell refer to it as a Ponzi Scheme.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseHear, hear!
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseAmen.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseAndy has nailed it. The old bromide of "If you rob Peter to pay Paul; you will have the undying support of Paul" applies to the SS Ponzi scheme! And right now there are a lot of Paul's out there who want the gravy train to keep on coming, while a few of the Peters are figuring out they have gotten the shaft!
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseEventually the Peters become the Pauls when they retire, and many of these new Pauls discover they love a program they once hated. Thus the system perpetuates itself.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseBy definition doesn't a Ponzi scheme rely on voluntary investment?
Reply to this commentLinkReport Abusewhat would a better word be ?
Reply to this commentLinkReport Abuse"Flimflammery"?
Nah, even that implies voluntary participation.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseNo
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseNo. At its core it is a scheme in which those in first are paid with payments from those coming in later. Voluntary or involuntary is irrelevant. Yes Ponzi’s original scheme was voluntary. But SS is run in the same manner---those in first are paid by those in second and those in second are paid by those in third and on and on. That the government uses the coercive force of law to perpetuate the scheme doesn’t take it out of the realm/definition of a Ponzi scheme.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseNo, it relies on suckers - voluntary or otherwise.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseSteve999
Of course, the scheme from which the name is derived was voluntary. Because Mr. Ponzi, in his wildest dreams, never imagined a world in which his victims could be legally forced to contribute.
However, to suggest that such a scheme must be voluntary "by definition" ignores all the other characteristics (the fraud, the payment of older participants with funds collected from new participants, and the inevitable, unsustainable collapse) for which the comparison between Ponzi's scheme and FDR's holds very true.
Therefore, I suggest it is not those who disagree with you who are having problems with inconvenient definitions.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseNo person who understands how a Ponzi scheme works will support it (other than the mastermind behind it).
Most people who understand how SS works support it and want it to continue. Those who don't are right wing idealogues.
This has been sufficiently explained. At this point, we should not try to change the views of the SS haters but outvote them. In the primary and, if necessary, in the general.
Reply to this commentLinkReport Abusemost people know that SS cannot continue in its current form ... your ignorance is simply breathtaking ...
Reply to this commentLinkReport Abuse"Most people who understand how SS works support it and want it to continue. Those who don't are right wing idealogues."
I know it has taken from me money that would have been better entrusted with my investment guy ...
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseThe early investors who require others to contribute so that they can get theirs back want ponzi schemes to continue.
The fact that the leeches of society like a program, is not sufficient justification for keeping it.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseLogic has never been your strong suit.
A Ponzi scheme is a Ponzi scheme regardless of current level of support.
Moreover, those who have been paying into Social Security for years have a vested interest in the program continuing as long a necessary that they recoup their losses. It is precisely the same situation the final "investors" in a Ponzi scheme find themselves in---they don't want it to stop because then they will have irrevocably lost what they put into it. They also focus on the fraud perpetrated upon them, not the fraud they wish to continue perpetrating upon others---which is precisely what you're doing.
I don't want my children enslaved and pauperized so Democrats will send me a monthly check in my dotage.
Were you a free man, you wouldn't want it either.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseThe people who support SS do so because they are either getting payouts from it, or are almost old enough to, and were too foolish or lazy to plan for their own retirement.
This is what makes SS truly diabolical. It undermines the morality of those it victimizes by teaching them to be parasites. This was the outcome it was invented to create. A dependent people are easy to control, easy to enslave. A free people cannot be enslaved, the worst you can do is kill them.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseHave you ever been bogged down in an argument where you said the wrong thing, or used a word incorrectly? Worry no more. At NRO, for just a small donation, we can fix your problem during this primary season.
If you do not like the definition of a word, we at NRO will redefine it for you . . . To take advantage of this primary season offer, please donate [X] amount of dollars to the "NRO's Redefining Definitions for Winning Arguments and Taking Back America Tour". As a special bonus if you act now NRO will also accept any of your dictionaries to be used at NRO's annual book burning seminar: a true and tried tradition of removing knowledge from societies from time to time.
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National Review Online and you - let's purge those specific and technical definitions, one word at a time.
Reply to this commentLinkReport Abuse