A Voice From the Past
General Thucydides speaks about the war.

By Victor Davis Hanson, author most recently of Carnage and Culture: Landmark Battles in the Rise of Western Power.
November 27, 2001 9:15 a.m.

ast night I had the pleasure of consulting with an obscure ex-general. Now retired (under somewhat dubious circumstances), he is currently hard at work on his first book — a rambling and rather academic account of a long-forgotten war. Although Lt. Gen. Thucydides is in poor health, near 70, and desperate to finish his work, he agreed to take some time out to talk for a few minutes about his views on the current conflict. His tone was formal, almost grim — yet also philosophical.

Question: Why is it those crowds in the Muslim world rush into the streets to promise us death, and yet now the same firebrands have suddenly retreated into the shadows on the news of our power and mercy?

Thucydides: Hope and greed, the one leading and the other following, the one conceiving the attempt, the other suggesting the facility of succeeding, cause the widest ruin. [3.45]. Their judgment was based more upon blind wishing than upon any sound prevision. For it is a habit of mankind to entrust to careless hope what they long for, and to use arbitrary reason to thrust aside what they do not fancy. [4.108]

Question: So, we shouldn't take all that shouting too seriously? Is that what you're saying — that it is based on false dreams and empty hope, not real power?

Thucydides: Hope is danger's comforter and it may be indulged by those who have abundant resources — if not without loss, at all events without ruin. But its nature is to be extravagant: those who go so far as to put their all upon the venture see it in its true colors only when they are ruined. [5.103]

Question: And do you think that human unpredictability which you describe also explains the fickleness here at home, when critics, Left and Right, damned our initial bombing efforts — and yet now are eager to praise our sudden victories?

Thucydides: One must support the national resolve even in the case of reverse, or to forfeit all credit for their wisdom in the event of success. For sometimes the course of things is as arbitrary as the plans of men; this is why we usually blame chance for whatever does not happen as we expected. [1.140]

Question: OK, but many say that we Americans are now too eager to go to war. Don't pacifists have a point that we are the moral equivalent of our enemies when we retaliate with force?

Thucydides: For those, of course, who have a free choice in the matter and whose fortunes are not at stake, war is the greatest of follies. But if the only choice is between submission with loss of independence, and danger with the hope of preserving that independence — in such a case it is he who will not accept the risk that deserves the blame, not he who will. [2.62]

Question: So we are going to be in a real war?

Thucydides: It must be thoroughly understood that war is a necessity, and that the more readily we accept it, the less will be the ardor of our opponents. [1.144]

Question: But, General, you must concede that after Vietnam and now the disaster in New York, there is a growing fear that we might not prevail, but instead provoke even greater terror. The Taliban sounded pretty dangerous, after all, and there's still Iraq and all the rest.

Thucydides: One must confront enemies not merely with spirit but with disdain. Confidence — indeed a blissful ignorance — can reside even in a coward's breast, but disdain is the privilege of those who, like us, have been assured by reflection of their superiority to their adversary. Where the chances of war are the same, knowledge fortifies courage by the contempt that is its consequence. Its trust is placed not in hope, which is the prop of the desperate, but in judgment grounded upon existing resources, whose anticipations are more to be depended upon. [2.63]

Question: I guess what you're saying, General, is that Americans should remember that B-52s and the Rangers have a better track record than the Taliban? On another matter — why do you think that bin Laden and his terrorists were so ignorant of American society, at least in the sense that they could repeatedly get away with killing Americans, win prestige, and gain concessions — without eventually incurring the destructive wrath of the United States?

Thucydides: Their own prosperity could not dissuade them from affronting danger; but blindly confident in the future, and full of hopes beyond their power though not beyond their ambition, they declared war and made their decision to prefer might to right. Their attacks were determined not by provocation but by the moment which seemed propitious. [3.39]

Question: The hijackers were relatively educated and affluent, as was bin Laden himself. So their desire for power doesn't seem to arise out of economic exploitation, colonialism, or real need, does it?

Thucydides: Fear, was the principal motive, though honor and self-interest afterwards came in. [1.75]

Question: So bin Laden and his associates were nothing new, but old-fashioned bullies who mocked our restraint? Let me ask you for a minute to just imagine — in a moment of candor — what the terrorists and the Taliban would have said of us before September 11.

Thucydides: "You are alone inactive, and defend yourselves not by doing anything but by looking as if you would do something; you alone wait till the power of an enemy is becoming twice its original size, instead of crushing it in its infancy." [1.69]

Question: Are you saying that they hit us because they got away with it in the past and had hopes for further success?

Thucydides: Fortune helps delusion, and by the unexpected aid that she sometimes lends, tempts men to venture with inferior means. [3.45]

Question: General — come now, do you really believe that we invited attack through the appearance of timidity, and only strong countermeasures will end the threat?

Thucydides: Human nature is surely made arrogant by consideration, as it is awed by firmness. Let them now be punished as their crime requires. [3.39].

Question: No other way out of this mess, then?

Thucydides: If anyone sees a safe course, it is high time for him to change his mind. The side that is once attacked, whose own country is in danger, can scarcely discuss what is prudent with the same calmness of men who are in full enjoyment of what they have got, and are thinking of attacking an adversary in order to get more. [4.92]

Question: So do we go on to Iraq as well?

Thucydides: Those who are tempted by pride of strength to attack their neighbors usually march confidently against those who keep still and only defend themselves in their own country. But they think twice before they grapple with those who meet them outside the frontier and strike the first blow if opportunity offers. [4.92]

Question: That's pretty clear-cut. Let's turn again to matters here at home. I was struck especially by the bravery of the doomed passengers who rushed the hijackers, and also the firemen who went into the flaming buildings to rescue the trapped. Was their heroism all that remarkable? And if it was, why so?

Thucydides: None of these allowed either wealth with its prospect of future enjoyment to unnerve his spirit, or poverty with its hope of a day of freedom and riches to tempt him to shrink to danger. No, holding that vengeance upon their enemies was more to be desired than personal blessings, and reckoning this to be the most glorious of hazards, they joyfully determined to take the risk. [2.42]

Question: Go on, I'm enjoying your rather quaint idealism.

Thucydides: Well, choosing to die resisting rather than to live submitting, they fled only from dishonor, but met danger face to face and after one brief moment, while at the summit of their fortune, escaped not from their fear, but from their glory. [2.42]

Question: I guess you think their courage was somewhat different from the much-ballyhooed determination of their suicidal killers, who piloted the jets into the towers?

Thucydides: It is not the miserable that would most justly be unsparing of their lives; these have nothing to hope for: it is rather they to whom continued life may bring reverses as yet unknown, and to whom a fall, if it came, would be most tremendous in its consequences. And surely, to a man of spirit, the degradation of cowardice must be immeasurably more grievous than the unfelt death that strikes him in the midst of his strength and patriotism! [2.43]

Question: Fiery words, General — I'd hope you would have tenure before saying that on a campus these days. Let's raise the issue of domestic terrorism for a minute. I've heard that some Americans are resolved to live for the day — given the uncertainty of the present, the sudden deaths of thousands, and promises of more deaths to come. And the anthrax scare certainly has panicked millions, especially in the first days of the news of the disease. Any remarks about what actually went on during that initial fright?

Thucydides: Men coolly ventured on what they had formerly done in a corner and not just as they pleased, seeing the rapid transitions produced by persons in prosperity suddenly dying. So they resolved to spend quickly and enjoy themselves, regarding their lives and riches as alike things of a day. [2.53]

Question: So that sort of panic is understandable?

Thucydides: Before what is sudden, unexpected, and least within calculation the spirit quails. And putting all else aside, the disease has certainly been an emergency of this kind. But born as you are, citizens of a great state, and brought up, as you have been, with habits equal to your birth, you should be ready to face the greatest disasters and still to keep unimpaired the luster of your name. [2.61]

Question: I hope so, at least. Let's go on to some brighter news. So far our leaders have been beacons of democratic resolve — particularly Mr. Rumsfeld. Looking back, can you shed any light on the secretary's formula for success with the press, or for that matter with the American people in general?

Thucydides: By his rank, ability, and known integrity, he was enabled to exercise an independent control over the multitude of them — in short, to lead them instead of being led by them. Since he never sought power by improper means, he was never compelled to flatter them, but, on the contrary, enjoyed so high a reputation that he could afford to anger them by contradiction. When he saw them unseasonably and insolently elated, he would with a word reduce them to alarm. On the other hand, if they fell victims to a panic, he could at once restore them to confidence. [2.65]

Question: High praise, indeed. Well, going beyond Mr. Rumsfeld, do you think in this age of cultural relativism, there is anything at all innate within American culture that gives us advantages over the enemy? Surely our institutions are different from those of our adversaries? What is it exactly that makes us strong?

Thucydides: We cultivate refinement without extravagance and knowledge without effeminacy. Wealth we employ more for use than show, and place the real disgrace of poverty not in owning to the fact but in declining to struggle against it. Our public men have, besides politics, their private affairs to attend to, and our ordinary citizens, though occupied with the pursuits of industry, are still fair judges of public matters. Unlike any other nation, we regard him who takes no part in these duties not as unambitious but as useless. And so we are able to judge if we cannot originate, and instead of looking on discussion as a stumbling block in the way of action, we think it an indispensable preliminary to any wise action at all. [2.40]

Question: I'm sure the U.S. Senate would agree. One last time, let's return again to the war. Afghanistan in general, the last three decades, seems an especially dangerous place, where almost anyone at anytime will kill at will. And why have these tribes invited in so many terrorists?

Thucydides: In peace, there would have been neither the pretext nor the wish for such an invitation. But in war with an alliance always at the command of either faction for the hurt of their adversaries and their own corresponding advantage, opportunities for bringing in foreigners are never wanting. [3.82]

Question: You seem to be suggesting that we can expect further random killings over there? We've heard awful stories of torture, executions, and mutilations. Are there more to come?

Thucydides: In peace and prosperity states and individuals have better sentiments, because they do not find themselves suddenly confronted with imperious necessities; but war takes away the easy supply of daily wants, and so proves a rough master that brings most men's characters to a level with their fortunes. [3.82]

Question: If you're right, won't it be hard to bring back law and order over there? I mean, it looks like a continual cycle of tribal tit-for-tat.

Thucydides: Men too often take upon themselves in the prosecution of their revenge to set the example of doing away with those general laws to which all alike can look for salvation in adversity, instead of allowing them to subsist against the day of danger when their aid may be required. [.3. 84]

Question: Any chance of surrenders or private deals?

Thucydides: From a mob like that you need not look for either unanimity in counsel or concert in action. But they will probably one by one come in as they get a fair offer, especially if they are torn by civil strife. [6.17]

Question: And should we be pretty tough with those who hold out, even those who weren't directly connected to 9/11?

Thucydides: Make up your minds to give them like for like; and do not let the victims who escaped the plot feel less our injury than the conspirators who hatched it. But reflect what they would have done if victorious over you, especially as they were the aggressors. It is they who wrong their neighbor without a cause, that pursue their victim to the death, on account of the danger which they foresee in letting their enemy survive. [3.40]

Question: Thank you for your candid, if occasionally brutal, assessments. I know it's getting late, but one last, rather personal question — do you really think any of your ideas will ever have relevance beyond that rather esoteric war between Athens and Sparta? I mean, aren't you worried that today's Americans will find all this far too dry? After all you're competing in a relatively small market, with the likes of Danielle Steele.

Thucydides: The absence of romance in my history will, I fear, detract somewhat from its interest, but…

Question: Gotcha. Sorry, I interrupted you — please finish…

Thucydides: But… if it is judged useful by those inquirers who desire an exact knowledge of the past as an aid to the interpretation of the future, which in the course of human things must resemble if it does not reflect it, I'll be content. In short, I have written my work, not as any essay which is to win the applause of the moment, but as a possession for all time. [1.22]

Thank you, General, and good night.