A 2010 Supreme Court case, Christian Legal Society v. Martinez, is beginning to wreak havoc with the accepted standard (and the First Amendment right to free assembly) that student organizations can restrict membership and leadership roles to those who accept their basic beliefs. Just a few weeks after the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill convened a task force to explore eliminating the right to exclude non-believers, a second UNC school has started down that path. At UNC-Greensboro, the administration has determined that a Christian student club isn’t really religious and “therefore must allow students of other religions and belief systems to become leaders and members as a condition to being a recognized group.” (There is also this situation going on over at Vanderbilt.)
The Alliance Defense Fund has filed suit on behalf of the UNC-Greensboro student group Make Up Your Own Mind. “Saying that a Christian club isn’t religious is flatly absurd,” said ADF Legal Counsel Jeremy Tedesco. Perhaps Make Up Your Own Mind v. UNC-Greensboro will clarify the matter more sensibly.
Christian students need to start joining Muslim student groups, run for leadership positions and demand the group recognize their beliefs. Pop some popcorn and watch the university tie itself in knots over what to do.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseI've got a pretty good idea what the universities would do. They would carve out exceptions for "underrepresented" and "disadvanteged" groups. Those groups would have sovereign freedom of assembly, while all other groups would not.
When you're as arrogant and self righteous as university administrators and faculty tend to be, you need not abide by logic, decency, fair play and the Constitution. Those are bourgoisie values and they don't apply to the jumped up aluminum gods who rule the academic archipelago.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseImagine what would happen if a non-Muslim tried to join an Islamic students' club and was refused. Nothing at all. No, I take that back. The Muslim students would storm the administration building, protesting that they had been mocked and demanding that the student be expelled and that they be given an entire building for their activities. The university would immediately grovel. The president of the institution would then receive a telephone call from BHO, thanking him or her for defending religious freedom.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbusePrecisely.
So what good is the university? They certainly are no longer places of open discourse.
Isn't it time it ends and we move on to the Education 2.0?
I'm reminded of this observation from 'The Most Powerful Idea in the World' by William Rosen discussing Thomas Newcomen and his synthesis of two ideas inaugurating the steam revolution:
"At the same time that he chartered the world's first scientific society, Charles II had created an entire generation of dissenting intellectuals uncontrolled by his kingdom's ever more technophobic universities. Some attended so-called dissenting academies, which mimicked the Oxbridge classical education with notably less arrogance about the teaching of science and modern languages. Many more learned their science in the most practical way: as apprentices to artisans who where more likely to be literate than ever before in history."
We have religious suppression, white male suppression; which sparks the question, is there a "garage" somewhere on the information superhighway where something transforming is being created by those denied assimilation into the university mindset?
Reply to this commentLinkReport Abuse"Isn't it time it ends and we move on to the Education 2.0?"
Yes.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseThis story -- or actually, its headline -- is dishonest.
Following the link, what UNC-G did was say that a particular group was not religious, not that Christianity was not a religion.
You should leave that sort of distortion to the Left.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseThere you go, bringing in facts. This is about emotion, not the truth.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseHow can a group that claims to be Christian be determined to be not religious unless it is first judged not to be Christian?
One can only make that judgment in two ways: Either by asserting the group is falsely claiming to be Christian and is using the Christian title for some other purpose; or by asserting Christianity isn't a religion so the group's claim to be religious is meaningless. Which judgment was the school making?
Perhaps we should assert UNC isn't a University?
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseChristianity in some respects is not one religion but a group of religions or churches. I know that is a discussion for Philosophy 101 but one could make that case.
However, if christianity is not a religion because it is not one church or sect then separation of church and state doesn't necessarily apply to christianity as a whole, just the churches within christianity. That would mean that our laws could be based on christianity in general but just not any one sect of christianity nor the will of any particular clergy and the separation of church and state as well as the first amendment would be respected.
But that would be outrageous! Oh wait, that is actually how our founders viewed freedom of religion and the idea of congress not establishing a state religion.
In other words the school is right in a sense. But there is no way that UNC wants to actually live with the implications that come with the premise that christianity is not one religion.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseWhat exactly is the fear here? I mean, I sure as heck don't agree with the notion that a Christian club is not religious, but if someone who isn't Christian joins out of benign curiosity, isn't that an opportunity to bring someone into the fold, so to speak? And if someone clearly joins with malicious intent, it strikes me that there are infinitely more clever and mischievous ways to drive them off without giving this group the satisfaction of reacting in exactly the way they anticipated.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseIf I were in one of these organizations, my fear would be that a large group opposed to my beliefs would join the club and take it over in the next election cycle. Alternatively, one or two people could join and disrupt the meetings. I suspect if individuals who are not Christian want to join and behave according to the standards of the organization and do not impeded the goals of the organization, there won't be a problem, but I'm not there and cannot say for sure.
Regardless of what their fears are, the constitution gives them freedom of assembly, and the state (apparently) takes it away. Why there is a standard of asking people to say why violating their rights is wrong in order for them to exercise them is beyond me, other than a simple power-grab by the state to enforce its will on its citizenry. Why can't groups of people associate with one another, without fear of interference, just because they want to?
Finally, if you are not a Christian, can't you find something better to do with you time? And the answer is no, particularly if what gives meaning to your life is the persecution of Christians.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseExactly. It would be like what would happen to Israel if the so-called "right of return" were enacted for Palestinians. Isreal would cease to exist.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseIts impossible to have a group called Palestinians if there is no such thing as a state of Palestine.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseBecause there is no Kurdistan there are no Kurds?
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseYou can't wave away the insane implications of declaring Christianity a non-religion by conjuring up some implausible hypothetical which, in one case out of a thousand, might possibly result in a Christian convert. Even if it were a plausible scenario, it would be completely irrelevant, and if UNC-Greensboro had any reason to think that this was going to swell the ranks of Christian organizations with committed Christians, would they even consider it for a moment?
You must think everyone else is really, really stupid.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseAs someone already mentioned, the post's headline is a bit misleading. They didn't declare Christianity a non-religion, but, rather, that the club is a non-religious group. It's dopey, sure, but I'd imagine that that their silly notion is that like a German Club or an Asian Club, they don't see a reason to limit participants. And what I'm saying is that to the extent that there's something malicious at the core of this, it would be more fun to drive atheists away by being "unbearably religious" for a spell. But perhaps it's just my mischievous inner Breitbart at work when I think that doing things like organizing sack races where you're required to recite Biblical verse would be a more entertaining way to drive off atheists than letting them torment the people in the group. It's best to win on principle, but it isn't a sin to win by being clever either.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseReally? Do you think there is a chance they will declare that a Muslim organization is not really a religious organization? If they did, your claim would have some merit.
I think you are trying very hard not to see the obvious here. The only way the university's position makes any kind of sense is if they are operating from the premise that Christianity is not really a religion (and therefore unworthy of religious freedom).
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseI've no doubt that sincere seekers would be welcomed, but the bylaws make it possible for them to maintain their core mission. If they had to allow anyone to be in leadership positions, that would dilute their message.
The way to fight this is to organize take-overs of beloved Liberal or Muslim organizations. Find a small one, then blitz it with new members dedicated to reversing its core mission. Consider it an educational opportunity. Some possible targets at UNC:
Asian Students Association (ASA)
Cadence All-Female A Capella (I really do think the men might get some fun out of this)
Carolina BEEBES (has to do with supporting breastfeeding - LOTS of fun there)
Checked Out - LGBTQIA organization
If they DARE - The MSA (Muslim Student Association)
Just hitting a few targeted organizations should start giving them some administrative actions that will support their legal response.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseIn all the cases that I am familiar with, anyone can join these clubs. It's the leadership positions that are limited to believers.
Reply to this commentLinkReport AbuseI recall that Justice Scalia predicted absurdities of this sort would take place.
Oh well, look at the bright side. At least we the sensible people can count on our institutions of higher education to keep replenishing America's strategic stupid reserve.
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